Joan Astley Clay

Joan Astley

We do not have a definite date for the birth of Joan Astley but we can presume c1410 plus or minus 10 years. We have a date for the birth of her brother of c1408, Sir John Astley KG, he was a well known jouster and we will offer more on him, she also had another brother Sir Thomas. The problem we have with those dates are that supposedly her father, again Sir Thomas, died in 1399.

We have very little mention of Joan before 1464, the year that Sir John died. John and Joan had a daughter, also Joan and we know that she died in 1453 but we dont know when she was born. A son, John was born c1444 and they had another daughter, Cecily, again we do not know when she was born.

We have this interesting piece of information from the book, St George's chapel, Windsor in the late Middle ages, Richmond & Scarff, page 130

Morte Dartinr, pp. 139-41. Sir John's widow Margery names her parents as Sir Thomas Astley and Lady Jane his wife in her will (PRO, PROB 11/8, f. 113V). Sir John's sister Jane married Sir John Clay of Cheshunt, Herts., and 'Shavesey', Cambs., (d. 1464) who calls his wife 'Jane' in his will and has an influential group of executors, including Hugh Fenne and Lord Wenlock (PROB 11/5. f. 4tr-v). Jane Clay died in the parish of St Benet Paul's Wharf, London, and died in 1477, making her brother one of her executors (PROB 11/6, f. 232r-v); The parish of Clay remained engraved in Margery Astley's will ten years later. Astley pedigrees vary in detail and do not include Jane Clay.

This  would indicate that Sir Thomas who married Joan, (Jane) Gresley was the father and mother of Sir John and Joan, (Jane) not Sir Thomas and Elizabeth Harcourt, that would make them grandparents. It is  somewhat confusing but The History of Parliament 1422-1461 sates that Joan was the daughter of Thomas Astley and Joan Gresley.

We have an account of Joan in the patent rolls in 1465, concerning the lands of the attainted Thomas Ormond, which Sir John Clay had been granted by Edward VI.

CALENDAR OF PATENT ROLLS.

Membrane 14-continued.

1465.

Grant to the late Joan the wife of John Clay, knight, John Clay his son Westminster. and heir and Robert Grene, esquire, executors of the said John Clay, knight, of all issues, profits and income before the 1st of October last of all manors, lands, rents, services, reversions, farms and possessions of which Thomas Ormond, esquire , had in the counties of Essex and Cambridge, in the hands of the king by his forfeiture, without rendering any account.

Some time around 1464/5 we have Joan listed as one of only ten people in the county of Hertfordshire in an account of persons having 10 Pounds per annum, we note that Sir John Say, Clay's old friend is also listed. In another version of the same list, it describes Joan Clay, widowe, with my Lord the Kings mother. Had Joan Clay been befriended by Cecily, the Kings Mother, its not unlikely as Cecily would have known Sir John many years by now and he and Joan were probably considered friends or at the very least a trusted servant. The Camera Dianae, which John Clay appears to have rented and St Benet's church, where he and Joan were buried and Baynard  Castle, where Cecily lived, were all within a short distance of each other

The history and Antiquities of Hertfordshire, Sir Henry Chauncy, page 33

Edward II. required persons having 20 Pounds  per annum to take upon themselves the dignity of knighthood, whereas our modern parliaments, in all their bills, have valued the estate of a knight at 1000 Pounds by Ansum, and at this Proportion 20%. then responds 1000 to date. Since then all those tenants of Socage, who could spend forty shillings a year on freehold above their income, have been considered part of the community of the county; for they were recognized at assizes, clerks before juries, suitors to the hundred county courts, elected knights of the Shire, and their lands were responsible for the expenses of their salaries; they have further been qualified to act jointly with the military in all that concerns the affairs of the county, wherefore I think it will not be improper to give you an account of all these gentlemen, who may spend 10 Pounds and resided in this county, in the time of Henry VI. which I recovered from the original roll.

Sir John Say of Brokesborne, Kt. William Say of Brokesborne, Esq John Lovyngton of Cheshunt, Esq John Knyghton of Baxford, Gent. John Louch of Hertingfordbury, Gent

Robert Hodeadon from Hodeadon, Gent, John West of Hertford, Thomas John Walsh of Cheshunt, Esq. Joan Cley of Cheshunt, widow, with Robert Mallory of Hertford, Esq

Later in the Calendar of patent rolls of Henry VI,  restored to kingship for a brief period, we have Joan chasing a debt still outstanding to Sir John.

Calendar of the Patent rolls, Henry VI, m21 November 23rd 1470

A pardon to John Laurence alias Laurens of Wyboldeston in the parish of Minster. Eton, company. Bedford, gentleman, late eschentor of the late king in the counties of Cambridge and Huntingdon, of his outlaws in Middlesex and London for failing to appear before Robert Danby and his colleagues, judges of the deceased's bench king, to satisfy John Manyngham, esquire, of 171, 6s. 8d. which the latter recovered against him before the said judges and 6 marks in damages and to satisfy the said late king with his ransom for having refused an obligatory writing of 171. 6s. 8d. before John Prysot and his followers, late judges of the bench, to answer to Ralph, Baron of Graystok and Wem, Knight, receiving a debt of 15 marks 38. 4d. and before the said judges of the late king to answer Henry Silver, citizen and vintner of London, receiving a debt of 107. and to answer a pleading which he makes 401. to Joan Clay, widow, late wife of John Clay, knight , John Clay, son and heir of the said knight, and Robert Grene, squire, executors of the said knight; he proceeded to Flete Gaol and satisfied the said John Manyngham, as certified by Robert Danby, Chief Justice of the Magistrates.

Later in the Calendar of Patent rolls,  M29, Edward VI, 1471, July 1st, we have pretty much the same entry and the debt is still unnpaid. As we can see Edward VI is now back in power.

Joan died in 1477 and her will was published in that year, we shall delve into that in the wills section but we can say that her son was not included in the will and we believe that he may have pre deceased his mother.

From a  publication, Short Notices, Volume XXXIX, Issue CLV, July 1924

There is nothing mysterious in Saint Benet and the Camera Diana; the position of the Camera is well known; he was then at Doctors' Commons at Paul's Wharf Hill, in the parish of St. Benet, in the church where the widow of Sir John Clay was buried in 1477.